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Feochadan
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Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #1

The previous thread being long enough (I know most board softwares do not like it), I put this here.
On patch message from Test, there is the following :

Spells
- Rogue - Increased the backstab damage done by Battery.

AA
- Rogue - Precision has been restructured to actually function the way it was intended now. You may begin rejoicing!


I have no data yet. We'll see.



Last edited by Feochadan; 05-16-11 at 01:26 PM.
Panein
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #2

we'll see....


Renuvas
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #3

Guess Elidroth wasn't lying to me.



brogett
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #4

Feochadan said:
The previous thread being long enough (I know most board softwares do not like it), I put this here.
On patch message from Test, there is the following :

Spells
- Rogue - Increased the backstab damage done by Battery.
The old ranks 1 to 3 were BS skill attack 1301, 1522, 1743.
The new versions are 1366, 1598, 1830 so it's a 5% buff to Battery.

The Aggravated Battery buff doesn't look to have changed.

Brog


songsa
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #5

brogett said:
The old ranks 1 to 3 were BS skill attack 1301, 1522, 1743.
The new versions are 1366, 1598, 1830 so it's a 5% buff to Battery.

The Aggravated Battery buff doesn't look to have changed.

Brog
5% buff for a maybe 300-400 dps attack (need to test it) is less than 20 dps, i don't see the logic behind this change. Why spend time to change a disc if this is barely noticeable?



Songsa
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Middy
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #6

/sigh.

we need a 5-10% overall increase, not a 20 dps upgrade!


brogett
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #7

songsa said:
5% buff for a maybe 300-400 dps attack (need to test it) is less than 20 dps, i don't see the logic behind this change. Why spend time to change a disc if this is barely noticeable?
Indeed. Even if they boosted every single skill by 5% it's still not going to cut it, so it seems a bit minor.

That said I am pleased they're at least tweaking things. We just need to make sure they're aware of the size of the gap. The tiny tweaks leads me to suspect they feel we only need a minor adjustment.

Edit: it's also possible that if they boost something else (like attack, crit rates, whatever) that the 5% here is a multiplicative effect... can only hope!


Wastya
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #8

Im interested if anybody has tested out the adjustment to the AA yet and if its any significant boost to our DPS...


Dasgreif
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #9

So far I have not seen much of an increase in dps on test parses, if any appreciable amount exists. Though I only have 2hrs of parses so far.

In short do not expect to see much of a change to increase our dps to catch up with other mellee dps classes. Rather expect to see the other classes have their dps toned down a bit.



Dasgreif

Last edited by Dasgreif; 05-21-11 at 11:29 PM.
Feochadan
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #10

Well, seeing monks stopping to sploit a bug is a good thing. I guess that the "monk + pets" lines we see in parses will be replaced with "monk" only, and either, according to them before the nerf "not so low below current", or according to the same people after the nerf "down the bottom". I guess that some of the vocal monks have lied heavily either then or now, downplaying the amount of dps they gained then, or exagerating the loss due to the fix.

Anyway, as they tank that well, get that many self cures and self heals, there is no reason that their dps would be in the top tier.
After a few weeks with the initially intended monk dps, we'll be able to see where they really stand.

The shield using warriors are also toned down on this next patch, more opportunities to rogue groupers to not be refused a slot in a group because "warriors do better".

The problem remains with berserkers though, there is no value to be a rogue when berserkers are at least as good - or not worse - on some fields, and so much higher everywhere else (ADPS + DPS).

For figures, the increase to Battery is just a token, that gives more time to devs to design than dps to us. Increasing the returns from Precision will range backstab accuracy from 85+ to less than 100 in raid, which means less than 4.5% (15% of 30%) overall dps increase.



Last edited by Feochadan; 05-23-11 at 07:05 AM.
brogett
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #11

The monks I've spoke to seem to think they'll lose somewhere around 1k dps on a burn, less on longer fights of course. That may put them closer to us, but I'd guess still ahead on any fight over a couple mins.

IMO we need to use berserkers as our benchmark when asking for improvements from the devs, as they're naturally our closest comparable competition, however it's the necros (and to some extent rangers) which are making a mockery of all the pure melee atm. In our raids we typically see even short fights (2-3min) having necro top spot even when that necro has no bard or chanter support. With it they're simply unassailable. Some parses I see necros over 50% ahead of the top melee.

Maybe it'll close when we get to end-tier HoT, but if so that just implies the game is inbalanced elsewhere. Maybe they need to make rank 1s and 2s less powerful so rank3s gained through progression mean something more than they currently do.


Feochadan
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #12

About 5% increase in backstab accuracy, so 1.5% overall dps. Zerkers can still sleep quietly.


brogett
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #13

It seems to vary for me. On trash stuff I used to be around 80% and now around 90%. On burns I was often already up at 90% anyway, but haven't had a decent burn since the upgrade t know what it's at now.

Anyway I'd say it's maybe closer to 3% therefore. Still nothing game breaking. (Subject to needing much more data.)


Garet Jax
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #14

Feochadan said:

Spells
- Rogue - Increased the backstab damage done by Battery.
One problem I've noticed on this is the range is way too short again. You have to get pretty darn close to use battery and it wasnt like that before. I wonder if they updated the old battery and its range instead of the newer fixed range battery.



Last edited by Garet Jax; 05-26-11 at 02:56 PM.
Garet Jax
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #15

Also, the fixing of group pact of the wolf really blows.


Feochadan
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #16

This spell can go on ignore list now.


songsa
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #17

Garet Jax said:
One problem I've noticed on this is the range is way too short again. You have to get pretty darn close to use battery and it wasnt like that before. I wonder if they updated the old battery and its range instead of the newer fixed range battery.
before patch
[26144/12315] Battery Rk. III
Classes: ROG/90
Endurance: 560
Target: Single
Range: 50
Resist: Unresistable
Casting: 0s, Recast: 30s, Timer: 8
Hate: 830
Recourse: Aggravated Battery III
1: Backstab Attack for 1743 with 10000% Accuracy Mod
Text: You are battered.

now
[26144/12315] Battery Rk. III
Classes: ROG/90
Endurance: 560
Target: Single
Range: 50
Resist: Unresistable
Casting: 0s, Recast: 30s, Timer: 8
Hate: 830
Recourse: Aggravated Battery III
1: Backstab Attack for 1830 with 10000% Accuracy Mod
Text: You are battered.

Apparently nothing changed for range.


Garet Jax
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #18

songsa said:
before patch
[26144/12315] Battery Rk. III
Classes: ROG/90
Endurance: 560
Target: Single
Range: 50
Resist: Unresistable
Casting: 0s, Recast: 30s, Timer: 8
Hate: 830
Recourse: Aggravated Battery III
1: Backstab Attack for 1743 with 10000% Accuracy Mod
Text: You are battered.

now
[26144/12315] Battery Rk. III
Classes: ROG/90
Endurance: 560
Target: Single
Range: 50
Resist: Unresistable
Casting: 0s, Recast: 30s, Timer: 8
Hate: 830
Recourse: Aggravated Battery III
1: Backstab Attack for 1830 with 10000% Accuracy Mod
Text: You are battered.

Apparently nothing changed for range.
I beg to differ, I usually box at least 2 rogues in group and the range is smaller. I usually pull with assail or battery depending on adds, and u have to get closer to the mob for battery. Rogues in our raid noticed it too, so I know i'm not just the only one. Should have the same range as assail.

I checked Lucy before I posted too, but when we raiding ss on wed, I was having issues with getting battery to stick, like my hotkey wasnt working or wrong rank, etc. I actually had to step up to get battery to stick, which when u have been playing a rogue for a long time, u have a feel for ranges to be at and what works. So when I noticed I had to move forward to use battery, that means the range is buggered. Before I even said anything , another rogue mentioned it in channel ( SG or Tenstone ) that it was shortened. I like to play at max melee so apparently thats not close enough for battery anymore. This is my opinion from playing alot of rogues and not just reading what Lucy says about it.



Last edited by Garet Jax; 05-27-11 at 12:01 PM.
Pyro
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #19

the legendary garet jax.


Shadowgleam_
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #20

Garet Jax is right the distance has decreased on Battery. I'm just surprised only 3 rogues have noticed so far. Perhaps many use vigorous dagger strike. hehe


songsa
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #21

im raiding atm and i don't see any difference for battery, maybe i just click it close enough anyway.


Taoden
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #22

I've never noticed the distance issue, maybe I'm like Songsa and close enough to not notice it. Only time I'm clicking vigorous is for pulling and range fights.



Rearshot
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #23

Could just be perception, but it did seem like I had to be closer to the gorilla on ritual of terror raid last night than normal. Noticed even when I was a bit closer than max melee, battery still wasn't going off. Had to step in further to get it to work.


hettil
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #24

i've noticed it too, but it only seems to be intermittent, not a constant thing. So i was writing it off to maybe a small lag issue. Tho honestly it seems to me that I need to be closer for even regular melee lately.



Rogues backstab, cheat, steal, sneak around, and generally cause mayhem and mischeif. If this isn't what you're doing, go be a monk or a zerker.

Middy
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #25

I noticed it on SS3 which is an underwater event...

The one mob I noticed it on had a considerably large hitbox and z axis might have been the problem... I wonder if they coded something different or there is some kind of bug related to size of the mob?


Feochadan
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #26

New on test, just for information :

- Rogue - Increased the damage done by Wound.
- Rogue - Increased the bonuses given to backstab damage by Daggerswipe.


Jazya
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #27

IMO at this stage of the game any 'tweaks' should be in the neighborhood of 500dps or they are just wasting their time.
Feochadan said:
- Rogue - Increased the damage done by Wound.
Previously Wound2 was 6716 x2 ticks / 90 sec = 149dps. To add 500dps means bumping wound to 30k/tick or reducing the recast to ~18 sec.

We'll see what happens. Personally I'd take a reduction in damage in exchange for instant refresh. This would allow us to DoT multiple targets and prevent lockout of pulling utilities.

As much as I hate DoT's, flat damage increases to abilities like Wound are probably the best because they are independent of gear, haste, slows, etc. Very controllable.
Feochadan said:
- Rogue - Increased the bonuses given to backstab damage by Daggerswipe.
Does anyone use this instead of Battery? I don't see minor numeric tweaks suddenly going to make this viable for a majority of Rogues.




Last edited by Jazya; 06-09-11 at 11:32 AM.
brogett
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #28

It's another 5% mod.

From live:

Code:
$ awk -F ^ '$2 ~ /^Wound/ {print $45,$2}' spells_us.txt 5913 Wound 6716 Wound Rk. II 7255 Wound Rk. III
From test:

Code:
$ awk -F ^ '$2 ~ /^Wound/ {print $45,$2}' spells_us.txt 6209 Wound 7052 Wound Rk. II 7618 Wound Rk. III


Jazya
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #29

7.467dps
lawl


brogett
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #30

Oh come now, let's not be disheartened.

Sometimes it's 3 ticks and not 2 - so let's call it 2.5 ticks. That'll be 9.3 dps! And don't forget there's a chance they may crit too, so with luck it'll be 10, 11 hell there's even an outside chance it's 12dps!


Padgin
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #31

If they don't just make it applicable to tier 3 disc's. The BS upgrade, still has not been applied to the crafted HoT daggers.... and I suspect never will.


Garet Jax
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #32

holy smokes, did i read that right? monks got a 35% increase in dps? crazyness


brogett
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #33

Looks like the monk tweaks going in on the same patch are

Cloud of Fists reuse drops from 60sec to 30sec.
Drunken Monkey usable again (I assume) by moving the timer.
Six-Step Pattern gains 7.5% more damage.
Ironfist Disc (1min duration) goes from 240% to 260% modifier on kick damage.
Stonefoot damage up 11% (from 450 to 500)
Fists of Steel up 15% (100 to 115)



Last edited by brogett; 06-10-11 at 12:05 AM.
nollen
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #34

They seem to be going out of their way to find the most insignificant ways to "add to rogue DPS" so that it looks like they are doing something when they in fact are not.

It's hard to point and accuse them of ignorance any more. Stupidity is not this surgically precise.


Durris-Tribunal
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #35

Kinda hard to expect any decent upgrades to dps when u got Pyro and Qulas posting we do not need them. just my 2 .


Oniikage
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #36

Agreed, Durris.

And Qulas, please tell your brother Mellifleur to go back to Xegony, I lol'd IRL when he attempted to app my guild. Luckily I was on Xegony a while back and quickly **** blocked that one


brogett
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #37

Durris-Tribunal said:
Kinda hard to expect any decent upgrades to dps when u got Pyro and Qulas posting we do not need them. just my 2 .
Couldn't agree more. As rogues we need to be unified on this and that means taking the view as a whole across the board for all rogues, not just those in 1-2 uber guilds with so much dps everything falls over in the duration of a rogue disc.


Qulas
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #38

Oniikage said:
Agreed, Durris.

And Qulas, please tell your brother Mellifleur to go back to Xegony, I lol'd IRL when he attempted to app my guild. Luckily I was on Xegony a while back and quickly **** blocked that one
**** that, you can keep him!



Qulas
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #39

Durris-Tribunal said:
Kinda hard to expect any decent upgrades to dps when u got Pyro and Qulas posting we do not need them. just my 2 .
I'd like to see where I said rogue's don't need boosts.

We just differ in our ideas of where the class needs boosts.


Pyro
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #40

Qulas said:
I'd like to see where I said rogue's don't need boosts.

We just differ in our ideas of where the class needs boosts.
/\


Durris-Tribunal
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #41

I have not posted my idea's how to help rogue's but what the class has gotten is very minor.


Eleena Transient
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #42

brogett said:
Oh come now, let's not be disheartened.

Sometimes it's 3 ticks and not 2 - so let's call it 2.5 ticks. That'll be 9.3 dps! And don't forget there's a chance they may crit too, so with luck it'll be 10, 11 hell there's even an outside chance it's 12dps!
LOL. So, 2 hours of constant use of this boost is equal to 1 max raid poison crit...

This is just sad, especially compared to the increases they originally talked about months ago to bring us in line.



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Jazya
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #43

This Wound "upgrade" would make sense in a 4/1 patch...


Blackmoore
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #44

"What do you mean by 'you haven't boosted rogues?' we gave them all kinds of increases!"

Give it up; they are laughing at us.

Laughing.


Shadowgleam_
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #45

Blackmoore said:
"What do you mean by 'you haven't boosted rogues?' we gave them all kinds of increases!"

Give it up; they are laughing at us.

Laughing.
So are those who are doing their best to sabotage the rogue class.


Pyro
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #46

What's a realistic view on what we should be sustaining DPS wise? I mean do you guys even have an idea on what you want to sustain with just auto-attack and backstab? Are you wanting to be able to hold like 9-10k DPS with group weapons doing just that alone, no bard, no shaman, no zerker, no aDPS what-so-ever, and using no spells or discs obviously?

These are the kinds of things I'm curious about now, because this has been going on for quite a long time, this current sustained discussion I mean, and I'm serious too. Cause we've been throwing out all these ideas ect, but we have no actual number we'd like? No general idea in the ball park of where our sustained DPS should be? And I'm willing to even now go with an auto-attack and backstab concept, using no extra abilities, no discs ect, and I'm talking about the group level of the game, not the raid.


What should our dps level be at using these few categories as frames of reference;

1) Level 90;

2) 2500 AA

3) Max group gear/weapons/augs

4) Test dummy, level 90-95.

5) Auto-attack/Backstab skill.


Using those categories, what should our current DPS level be at sustained? I figure it's about 5-6.5k using that stuff right now. (Played my friends group geared rogue using just the things above, scaled and varied to about that amounts)

This is not with wound, battery, or anything of that sort, and zero 10-15min discs.


After considering the following, then I want you to ask yourself, is that bad? Then also take into account when you burn, if doing it properly you can hit 25k in the duration of your disc using group weapons, solo, no other aDPS involved. Then after considering all of this, realize that if you want to be able to sustain 9-10k DPS with just auto attack and backstab or something ridiculous like that, with group weapons, that it's never going to be a reality, at least not this expansion. I'm under the assumption that it's something near that level of bloated-ness because there's been no real numbers thrown around.

The reason it'll never be a reality is because all the other classes, including rangers, zerkers, monks, don't sustain that with just auto attack right now, or warriors, and stop, wait, let me be clear, I mean with the current categories above.

Another reason that'd never be a reality, is because that, as I've been saying, will inflate the raid game rogues so much, that will be MILES ahead of every other class, probably into the necromancer range of ridiculous DPS. If you would be holding even 8-9k with auto attack/backstab and group weapons, imagine what us raid rogues would be doing to the other classes if we would be having a shaman, bard, zerker, beastlord...using our definition of sustained because that's how we DPS. We'd be holding about 25k sustained maybe more, and millions of damage ahead of the next melee class. Don't even get me started on our burns.


Don't believe me? I'll give you a taste of how I burn on raids with a set up and then my sustained currently. These are RECENT parses too, they can be confirmed or asked about, send tells to my guild members, they'll confirm it they are in the parse channel everyday;

Qulas, Mykaylla, Sottovoce, Boogs, anyone.

With a bard zerker, shaman, beastlord each raid, everyone has one, everyone has the same effects;


/GU Brell Serilis in 48s, 2998k @62461dps --- Pyro 2998k @62461dps (Had to grab some flags for alts or some **** I don't remember)



The Nightmare Clock in 80s, (Guild DPS edited out ect) --- Pyro 4534k @60451dps --- Zerker 4369k @61537dps --- Ranger 4118k @56412dps --- Zerker 4103k @51286dps --- Ranger 3554k @46159dps --- Rogue 3375k @44994dps --- Rogue 3070k @38855dps --- Wizard 2924k @46408dps --- Necromancer 2846k @36963dps --- Rogue 2434k @30815dps'

/GU A hammerhead shark in 43s, 2556k @59444dps --- Pyro 2556k @59444dps no natures fury


All nights combined sustained; /GU Combined: A Rot Howler in 3823s, 58895k @15406dps --- Pyro 58895k @15406dps


/GU Combined: Morell Thule in 2829s, 44494k @15728dps --- Pyro 44494k @15728dps'


The only reason I'm showing you these parses is to show you what we're actually capable of and what we're maxing at right now in the high end, what we're sustaining and burning for.

Not every rogue is doing this obviously, each one plays different to a degree, but I'm doing it, so that's enough said.

Now a lot of you talk about class balance, how balanced will the game be when we're miles ahead of other classes? And we will be, even if you don't play your rogue to the max it can be played.

Don't get offended by me posting parses to show you some things, I'm not trying to be little any of you or make you feel bad, I just think you really need to understand what you're asking for and why it may not get done. Not just because the devs "don't listen to us".


banin
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #47

OK please i am not posting to be silly but WHO says that Rogues can not be on top of the mellee DPS standings
we used to be there a long time ago ??
my rogue is 90 with over 3k AA all the best T4 gear and weapons and Augments
i do good in a group situation get a monk in the grp and he will out DPS me 99% of the time same as a ranger and a berzerker all with T4 gear like my self
all i am asking for is to be a little better than all the other mellee PLEASE


brogett
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
Reply With Quote   #48

Pyro said:
What should our dps level be at using these few categories as frames of reference;

1) Level 90;

2) 2500 AA

3) Max group gear/weapons/augs

4) Test dummy, level 90-95.

5) Auto-attack/Backstab skill.


Using those categories, what should our current DPS level be at sustained? I figure it's about 5-6.5k using that stuff right now. (Played my friends group geared rogue using just the things above, scaled and varied to about that amounts)

This is not with wound, battery, or anything of that sort, and zero 10-15min discs.
Zerothly (ok I thought about it after) - add the list of buffs into your definitions.

Firstly, that's not really a sensible definition of sustained dps. I view dps as either burst (the main discs like RF+FS/TC, Assassin's) or the non-burn bit; aka sustained. Together they make our combined parses. So under that terminology sustained isn't just autoattack+backstab, it's battery, wound, thief's eye, etc etc.

I can't recall the parses I did in beta, but from what I recall they were no more than 5-6k with all those abilities, not without. I'd have to double check my notes. So I think pure attack+BS being 5-6k is too much unless you happen to have a lot of support. Those same parses with comparable gear showed monk and berserker substantially ahead with even warriors ahead of us when tanking (less when not).

As for your parses, all they show is that the disc multipliers are very good, perhaps *too* good. People continually ask for upgrades to discs every expansion. Well, do chanters ask for higher hastes, shaman for slower slows, etc? It doesn't make sense to increase multipliers over and over. Maybe *more* discs or longer lasting ones, but not more powerful ones.

All that does is make the likes of RoI find the game even easier and the rest of us it does little towards as we don't stack our guilds with such a DPS oriented setup.

Brog

PS. As I've said on eqforums regarding the RoI whole-night burns etc, where are your casters? Did you stack the guild with 100% melee burn? How do your whole night parses compare vs others? I've seen group gearred necros capable of sustained what you do on the rogue Pyro, and in raids ours totally murder everyone on dps.


Pyro
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
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brogett said:
Zerothly (ok I thought about it after) - add the list of buffs into your definitions.

Firstly, that's not really a sensible definition of sustained dps. I view dps as either burst (the main discs like RF+FS/TC, Assassin's) or the non-burn bit; aka sustained. Together they make our combined parses. So under that terminology sustained isn't just autoattack+backstab, it's battery, wound, thief's eye, etc etc.

I can't recall the parses I did in beta, but from what I recall they were no more than 5-6k with all those abilities, not without. I'd have to double check my notes. So I think pure attack+BS being 5-6k is too much unless you happen to have a lot of support. Those same parses with comparable gear showed monk and berserker substantially ahead with even warriors ahead of us when tanking (less when not).

As for your parses, all they show is that the disc multipliers are very good, perhaps *too* good. People continually ask for upgrades to discs every expansion. Well, do chanters ask for higher hastes, shaman for slower slows, etc? It doesn't make sense to increase multipliers over and over. Maybe *more* discs or longer lasting ones, but not more powerful ones.

All that does is make the likes of RoI find the game even easier and the rest of us it does little towards as we don't stack our guilds with such a DPS oriented setup.

Brog

PS. As I've said on eqforums regarding the RoI whole-night burns etc, where are your casters? Did you stack the guild with 100% melee burn? How do your whole night parses compare vs others? I've seen group gearred necros capable of sustained what you do on the rogue Pyro, and in raids ours totally murder everyone on dps.


Just going to address things you said in chronological order since there's quite a bit.

1). You view DPS as either sustained or burst, and that as a whole makes our combined parses? So your definition of sustained DPS is Auto-attack, backstab and anything that has a reuse timer of 5 minutes or less is basically what I'm getting? But a combined parse isn't sustained DPS.....A sustained DPS parse is auto attacking on a target, backstabbing and recycling your 5 minute or less re-use abilities? So, how does a Wizard, or Beastlord or Ranger or any other class parse their sustained DPS? Is it just, naturally higher because they are allowed to cast spells, or cast spells and melee and use pets ect? Cause if so that's no more sensible than the definition I had of how to parse sustained DPS, and any idiot with half of a brain or less could see that here. Really though, to be honest, that's just sparking up an old argument that I'm completely trying to avoid here.


2) All you did was reply to my post quoting my data and correcting it with supposedly what you have as your own. You didn't tell me what you think you want for sustained DPS using YOUR definition so I can get a view on it, also if you're apping to be the community leader, then your opinion is most of these rogues opinion I'd imagine, so your view on what our sustained DPS should be at as of now is pretty important. So I'd like that answered if you have an idea, or I'll just go with the assumption that we're walking circles around the ball park with our tails between our legs, confused as to what we actually would like. I obviously want a burn upgrade to increase my sustained, because that's the way I parse sustained. But What I'm trying to do is get an idea of what you'd like to be sustaining using your own definitions which are apparently far more sensible than mine, because you seem to be so dead-set on that. People coming on here and posting, "oh I got owned by a monk in the group he was using group gear" whatever, do you know how often he was recycling his ten minute reuse abilities, or what discs he was running? How do you know he was just auto-attacking and flying kicking or something ridiculous like that? What were you doing? Things to include when you come on here and just randomly post without extra facts included.



3) No, they don't show that disc multipliers are too good, because you see rogues below me not parsing anywhere NEAR what I'm parsing, so that's not a viable solution to why my burst DPS is so high. My burst DPS is so high is because I'm stacking my own discs, my OWN abilities in the proper order, I do that on a nightly basis very consistently. You're in a raiding guild too, you have a bard and shaman whatever, I've never seen you once post here about disc multipliers being too high or too powerful until I just recently showed these parses, now the aDPS abilities of bards and shamans and Beastlords is suddenly too high, k. No, our class is just as capable of doing extremely good DPS NOW, as a ranger or a zerker is. Now I don't think it's as easy for us as it is for them to do it, matter of fact I know it's not. But, what I do know is that we are capable of it, I'm not saying we shouldn't get upgrades to put us farther ahead of everyone else, we should be on top, I'm just saying, we don't need as big of an increase as you seem to be asking for. Which I'm assuming is exactly around the numbers I put up in my above post about group gear ect, cause you didn't correct any of that. Unless you'd like to now.


4) Why don't you stack your guilds with a DPS oriented set up? It's clearly the superior way, how is that the devs problem that you don't want to play Everquest in the best fashion possible, which it's clearly designed for now? Then you're going to turn around and ask for a bloated ass upgrades, that's absurd to do, and trying to justify it is even more ridiculous. Because then you know what you end up with? You end up with gigantic threads, like the many ones on here, with everyone running around in circles, attacking each other, biting each others heads off, looking for a light at the end of the tunnel solution so we can present it to the devs, and then nothing ever gets done. And THEN, we sit and talk about how the devs are just laughing at us and not listening to us. They aren't listening to us cause we're not coming together as a whole, which we never will, since we're still having stupid debates like this one right here, wasting enormous amounts of time. When it would just be easier to come up with an idea of, what we want our sustained DPS numbers to look like, figure out which passive aa's to increase to do so, or create a new one, send it to the devs as a whole idea that we all want, or majority of us, and then watch it be put into effect. That simple.



5) Where are our casters? If you're talking about wizards, necros ect. Wizards get ruined by melee on burns and all night combineds, wizards aren't overpowered at all, mages we have one of, they don't have much room to parse, they won't show up in a guild like ours as much as they will in a low tier - mid tier guild. Necros just as in your guild, slaughter everyone here as well, they are truly overpowered and always have been, it's no secret. Our raid is perfectly balance, we don't have dumb raid make up, it's set up perfectly, we have necros and wizards ect, then we have he 3 melee dps groups, stacked with shamans and bards and beastlords, the necros and wizards get what they require to burn best with too always. There's no argument as to what point is weak in the raid, it's all balanced in my guild so everyone's on fair ground if that's what you mean. Everyone's at 100%, we have an overly full raid roster of each class. I don't really know what you're trying to get at with that comment.



Last edited by Pyro; 06-15-11 at 02:14 AM.
songsa
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Re: Currently from Test patch message
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Pyro said:
What's a realistic view on what we should be sustaining DPS wise? I mean do you guys even have an idea on what you want to sustain with just auto-attack and backstab?.
Other melee classes have less dps than us with autoattack + bs but have a better sustained dps cause they actually have some other procs, spells, etc.. way more powerful than that we can have.

Do u ever fight with autoattack and backstab only? no
For me sustained dps is autoattack + bs + all spells/disc/aa/poisons i can use every fight (battery, theif eye, wound, etc...) and i can assure you that a group rogue dpsing with that will have a lower dps than every other melee classes using same kind of attacks (autoattack + their disc/aa/poisons etc...).

Now we can include burn discs and make a combined parse and rogues will be competitive thx to rogue's fury 10min refresh but you ll have to use the burn discs as often as possible to compensate the lack of what i call "sustained dps" (what we can sustain)




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