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brogett
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Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #1

Following a discussion in the safehouse channel last night I decided to do a quick test. Unfortunately it's flawed as I don't have access to the necessary support classes, but it serves as a starting point to work from. They're short 30min parses only, but that's sufficient to get a ballpark figure and it's already 60x longer than the actual discs will last in real fights.

The discussion was around RF+FS vs RF+TC. Some rogues fell about laughing when I mentioned TC stacks well and that I sometimes use it instead of RF+FS, especially when using a glyph + full support crew. I'm not saying it is *always* the best combination as there are many other factors too, but it's far closer than some may realise and well worth a more detailed investigation. To start the ball rolling - a couple short parses.

1. RF+TC+rog epic+glyph of cata+TE+flurry trib. Some other self clickies (overhaste, attack), some buffs (unity), but sadly lacking things like the triple attack mod via chanter haste (I had a shaman haste up) and the ranger buffs.

/tell Brogett Brogett -vs- Test Ninety: -- DMG: 42556115 -- DPS: 23629 -- Scaled: 23629 -- Pierce: 30293180 -- Backstab: 12056000 -- DirDmg: 206935 -- Non-crit rate: 62.1% -- crit rate: 37.9% -- Attempts: 11688 -- Hits: 11688 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 3641 -- Max hit: 41668 -- DMG to PC: 0

2. RF+FS+(as above)

/tell Brogett Brogett -vs- Test Ninety: -- DMG: 41255232 -- DPS: 22907 -- Scaled: 22907 -- Backstab: 22145306 -- Pierce: 18858623 -- DirDmg: 251303 -- Non-crit rate: 75.1% -- crit rate: 24.9% -- Attempts: 13392 -- Hits: 10741 -- Missed: 2651 -- Accuracy: 80.2% -- Avg Hit: 3080 -- Max hit: 41668 -- DMG to PC: 0

Analysis

My weapon here is 90/20 with 49BS mainhand, 82/19 offhand. Basically T2 rog piercer with conv piercer offhand. Mid-level rogue stuff.

So RF+TC beats RF+FS, but that's too simplistic. I miss all sorts of buffs and mob debuffs. So let's think about them in turn.

A) Bard songs. Aria will massively increase flurry rate, which in turn modifies by primary. Unfortunately it's hard to tease out this data from the above given I had piercers in both hands, but from other parses about 60-65% of non-bs attack is primary due to triple+flurry. Bard song will boost primary only, having an overall effect of something like 25% boost to melee swings combined. I estimate that this will add 4.2k dps to RF+TC and 2.6k dps to RF+FS.

B) Pinpoint / Easy Mark. We're looking at 10% and 17% mod to backstab, which clearly benefits FS. Alas Easy Mark doesn't last the duration, but let's err on the side of favouring FS and say we have a rotation and multiple rogues are keeping it up for the duration. 17% more BS isn't really 17% more as we have +440 backstab through precise strikes, maybe another 100 in gear and 50 in heroics, so maybe ~600. My average backstab looks to be about 7.1k vs this lvl 90 dummy, so easy mark is approximately going to be around 15% boost. That puts it at +1k dps for TC vs +1.85k dps for FS.

C) Shaman epic. Increase Critical Hit Damage by 110% // Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 65%. It's non trivial to estimate precisely what impact this will have, so I'd love to do a proper parse when I'm able to get support. However it's clear that the shaman epic does more damage when we are doing more of our dps via crits. RF+TC gave me 67% of damage in crit form and RF+FS gave me 47% of damage in crit form. Clearly TC will be boosted more by crits. At an estimate based on average crit vs average normal hits for pierce & backstab it appears *approx* something like 4.5k dps for TC vs 3.7k dps for FS. I have little confidence in the actual numbers though, but ratios are probably not so far out.

D) Weapon progression. I have distinctly average progression weapons. End game we're looking at something like 101/20 primary with 51 backstab and maybe 106/22 offhand. So ignoring for simplicity the effect of +damage/min-hit values, ratio wise end-game will be gaining me about 12% pierce and 4% backstab. This means as I gear up TC will be getting stronger faster than FS will.

E) Reliability. FS is great when we have the rear arc, but let's face it we've all suffered times when the corner pin has just been duff (far too often for my liking) or someone has ganked agro and span the mob just as we hit the best disc combo. RF+TC will suffer too of course, but far less. It's hard to qualitate this, but clearly RF+TC is the more consistent output.

F) The remainder... It's not sufficient just to compare RF+TC vs RF+FS. We obviously then have whatever we didn't stack with RF to use later, so we really need to compare RF+TC and later FS vs RF+FS and later TC. How much later depends on fight - whether we get to use another epic, etc. It's a bit of a grey area with lots of unknowns. I haven't parsed them in isolation for some time, but they were pretty similar last time I looked.

Putting it together the parse showed 0.7k dps diff and with proper support this widens substantially. We need real parses to know the actual figures though. I'll see if I can get appropriate support to do this, but it'd be great if someone with end game weapons could do the same.

Clearly I'm missing something major here though, probably because most of the above gains are multiplicative and not additive. Looking at parse graphs I vary between 50-60k dps for the duration of RF+TC burns, and that's far more than the figures above indicate for support. (Generally a factor of 2 for ADPS isn't so far out though.) I guess the maths isn't up to it and I haven't considered things like war cry, Nature's Fury, etc.

In summary - don't assume... test!



Last edited by brogett; 07-19-11 at 02:08 AM.
Taoden
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #2

If I'm not mistaken unless the text on East mark disc is wrong it doesn't effect backstab but instead works on piercing and doesn't stack with Pinpoint. Could be wrong though I am tired.



brogett
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #3

The text is probably wrong. I'm sure it's backstab and raidloot spell parser claims it too.

The disc started as piercing during beta, but rogues complained that it'd help classes that do a larger percentage of damage through primary swings more than it would rogues and that we're not happy gaining ADPS especially when it benefits others more than ourselves.

Hence the devs changed it to backstab. It's a bit crap though that we now have two conflicting backstab modifiers. Pinpoint and easy mark need merging.


songsa
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #4

I read quickly but i think you forgot to mention that FS last 1 tick more than TC making the combo RF+FS last a bit longer than RF+TC.
Personally the parses in raid situation (using glyph) show a clear advantage for RF+TC when i have nature's fury running, the difference is less noticeable between the 2 combos when NF is not on.



Songsa
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #5

Brog, send a tell to Bristle.Joker sometime. I can get you shammy, bard, and enchanter buffs (I have those boxes) and they are already on test.


nollen
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #6

I've felt for a while that using TC with the "Big Burn" combo was probably equivalent or close enough to using FS, and in some cases better. The primary reason I don't usually use it is because very few fights that I'd be burning on a raid are shorter than 40 seconds, and TC stacks much better with effects I'll be getting after RF wears off than FS does.

I don't have numbers to back that up, however. Brogett addresses this in part F) of his post, so I'm not trying to take any credit here, just reinforcing.


brogett
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #7

songsa said:
I read quickly but i think you forgot to mention that FS last 1 tick more than TC making the combo RF+FS last a bit longer than RF+TC.
Personally the parses in raid situation (using glyph) show a clear advantage for RF+TC when i have nature's fury running, the difference is less noticeable between the 2 combos when NF is not on.
Good point - I'd forgotten about the extra tick. So I guess it's 1.2*(RF+FS) vs RF+TC + 0.2*(RF+base?). Will need better parsing for sure. Alternatively if you know you have time for a 2nd round of epic clicks but not enough for a second round of RF, then it may be worth switching instantly to RF+TS for 1 tick of overlap. We really need to know the dps of each and every combo, which isn't trivial.

How does Hundred Hands impact on stabbing? From what I recall it uses some nominal delay (3sec? something odd) for the calculations when using activated skills. Does it boost FS more than TC? You seem to imply TC gains more but I'd have to test that one as I don't know the exact effect it has on backstab.

My gut feeling tells me that the optimal burn order is not fixed and will depend on support classes.


songsa
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #8

brogett said:
How does Hundred Hands impact on stabbing? From what I recall it uses some nominal delay (3sec? something odd) for the calculations when using activated skills. Does it boost FS more than TC? You seem to imply TC gains more but I'd have to test that one as I don't know the exact effect it has on backstab.

My gut feeling tells me that the optimal burn order is not fixed and will depend on support classes.
This is what i see during usual parses i didnt parse it specifically but i can explain why TC would be better than FS with nature's fury by 2 reasons :

1st -> TC is 100% accuracy so you have many more hits landing than FS even with bs being quicker with FS and with hundred hand effect the number of hits landing is even more important. Those hits landing critic more often and with shm epic, bers effect, 3rd spire etc... this is multiplicative.

2nd -> nature's fury is HH effect and a boost of flurry %, with 100% accuracy from TC you have more triple attack landing due to no miss and then more flurry (firing when triple is hitting) that are boosted even more again with NF flurry % boost.

I see some multiplicative effects here that are not so important with FS.

2 things to temper that though : the flurry bug with aria of the composer making maybe flurry from NF useless (need to parse it to see if we have more flurry with nf or not when we have aria running), the second thing is i don't know the impact of HH effect on backstab exactly, maybe it's more important than i think but it doesnt seem as noticeable as we could expect in real situation.


nollen
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #9

100 hands is a static reduction to attack delay, which is why it stacks with all other haste. I don't even know if it works for backstab, but the % effect it would have on something with a 2+ second delay would be trivial compared to the % effect it has on our normal swings. That's why 100 hands helps TC much more than FS. Once RF expires, we are still getting a 100 hands effect from berserkers, beastlords, or bards, typically.


brogett
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #10

songsa said:
2 things to temper that though : the flurry bug with aria of the composer making maybe flurry from NF useless (need to parse it to see if we have more flurry with nf or not when we have aria running), the second thing is i don't know the impact of HH effect on backstab exactly, maybe it's more important than i think but it doesnt seem as noticeable as we could expect in real situation.
NF won't add any more flurries at all if you have aria, as the bug is such that you 100% flurry chance if you triple attack, and further more every flurry lands for a double extra hit instead of the more common single hit. Basically you either have 2-hit rounds or 5-hit rounds and never inbetween.

It may actually be that bug which is making TC so unexpectedly good.


IssusTruspirit
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #11

We finally beat Al'Kabor's At World's End event last night after spending 2 days total on it. Took us two attempts last night to nail it. There were two rogues on that raid, myself and another. My burn disc order has been TC + RF + 3rd + etc then, in the case of this event, as soon as TC wore off (while RF & 3rd were still running, not to mention a little of shammy epic still going) i immediately hit FS to take a slight advantage of all those effects still going on. Then of course i wrapped up with Assassin's. The other Rogue that was on last night's raid used FS + RF + 3rd + etc.

I asked him to try TC in place of FS on his burn for our 2nd attempt at Al'Kabor. The results-

He improved his overall dmg by 800,000. I kid you not. I'm at work, so don't have access to my logs to post it, but it was that significant of an increase. I'm in favor of saying that TC + RF + 3rd > FS + RF + 3rd at this time.

And as a side note, we're both extremely close in gear, i'd give him an edge as having better gear/Ohaste even than myself but i think i have slightly more AAs than he does.




Last edited by IssusTruspirit; 07-20-11 at 02:07 PM.
brogett
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #12

Oddly enough that's almost precisely what I did on our last Al'Kabor burn too, and it put me ahead of the other rogues as well. Some of that though was due to the other group having a shaman that didn't click their epic at the right time, which cripples the group synergy.

Without NF I was doing around 55k dps using RF+TC combination, using T2+conv weaponry.

It's certainly not too shabby a setup, but I still hope to do some proper long term parses to see how they pan out as it's a bit too anecdotal atm for my liking.


brogett
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #13

I have parses running atm with both bard songs and shaman epic click, with many thanks to Joker for assistance. I can't report on how they're all doing as I'm not at the PC now and I only have one sufficiently long parse (RF+FS+friends). That was 36.7k dps averaged over about 29000 secs IIRC. The RF+TC parse was too short when I left home this morning, but it was hovering around the 40k dps mark (+/- 1k probably) so approx 10% up on dps.

Obviously there are other factors, like no backstab debuff (easy mark/pinpoint) on NPC, I wasn't using by endurance draining abilities like wound or battery (so no +dam mod from that either), and the fact that FS outlasts TC. Plus I didn't have NF either. All things considered though it's a very close call. Proper data available once it's finished.


Kriyn
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #14

How would an overall event parse compare when using TC/RF/3rd to using FS/RF/3rd. FS by itself seems to be much less than TC by itself. It would seem that using TC/RF/3rd would give you a nice burn, but after that you are left with Assassins by itself and then a weaker third option.


brogett
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #15

Kriyn said:
How would an overall event parse compare when using TC/RF/3rd to using FS/RF/3rd. FS by itself seems to be much less than TC by itself. It would seem that using TC/RF/3rd would give you a nice burn, but after that you are left with Assassins by itself and then a weaker third option.
That's what I was referring to above with "F) The remainder...". It's not at all clear yet, but I think we need parses with and without various burn combinations and then slice and dice appropriately.


Brokkah
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #16

brogett said:
That's what I was referring to above with "F) The remainder...". It's not at all clear yet, but I think we need parses with and without various burn combinations and then slice and dice appropriately.
Well its something to keep you occupied between now and next expansion anyway!


Sindier
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #17

I've been in the process of doing a fairly extensive test parse over the past couple days, and should be finishing up today or tomorrow.

All the parses are 2.5 hours in length, so although not ideal they will prove to be a fair comparison.

Parses with RF/FS and RF/TC as well as full raid buffs (minus Auspice and Warcry, including bard/sham epics/clicks) are complete. NF was not used for these tests, but is going to be tested today to see the significance of the buff with both discs.

I'll be using the ADPS of all discs, including Assassins, in various scenarios and factoring in buff/disc durations to see if an ideal burn order can be seen in different situations...on paper at least.


brogett
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #18

WIth the same weaponry & gear, albeit this time on a lvl 98 to get a more realistic situation for raid burns, I have RF+TC and RF+FS done with bard & shaman loving.

Standard long term buffs - ranger Pred III, Str II, Unity III, haste of Novak II
Short term buffs - Shaman epic 2, Talisman of Tiger II
Bard: Noira II, Warmarch of Dagda II, Aria II, plus longer reuse burn tools Quick Time, Fierce Eye & Third Spire
Rog: Thief's Eyes, Epic, Third Spire, Envenomened Blades.

Missing: no nature's fury, no backstab mods (pinpoint/easy mark), no wound, twisted shank or battery (attack nor modifier), no poisons, no auspice, no warcry, no zerker aura

Parse 1: RF+FS+glyph of cata - duration 29109sec, 36686 dps

Brogett -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 1067918246 -- DPS: 36687 -- Scaled: 36687 -- Pierce: 541232146 -- Backstab: 499399715 -- DirDmg: 27286385 -- Non-crit rate: 75.1% -- crit rate: 24.9% -- Attempts: 283427 -- Hits: 242258 -- Missed: 41169 -- Accuracy: 85.5% -- Avg Hit: 3767 -- Max hit: 65539 -- DMG to PC: 0

Parse 2: RF+TC+glyph - duration 39756sec, 40051 dps

Brogett -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 1592295695 -- DPS: 40052 -- Scaled: 40052 -- Pierce: 1140316580 -- Backstab: 414795138 -- DirDmg: 37183977 -- Non-crit rate: 63% -- crit rate: 37% -- Attempts: 353256 -- Hits: 353256 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 4507 -- Max hit: 65539 -- DMG to PC: 0

Parse 3: Assassin's disc + glyph (no RF obviously) - duration 4332 sec, 25186dps

Brogett -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 109107678 -- DPS: 25186 -- Scaled: 25186 -- Pierce: 72424934 -- Backstab: 32745708 -- DirDmg: 3937036 -- Non-crit rate: 74.8% -- crit rate: 25.2% -- Attempts: 36618 -- Hits: 31128 -- Missed: 5490 -- Accuracy: 85% -- Avg Hit: 2979 -- Max hit: 60091 -- DMG to PC: 0

Parse 4: no-disc or RF, with glyph - duration 9304sec, 13068dps

Brogett -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 121586250 -- DPS: 13068 -- Scaled: 13068 -- Pierce: 77740826 -- Backstab: 35182039 -- DirDmg: 8663385 -- Non-crit rate: 74.9% -- crit rate: 25.1% -- Attempts: 79354 -- Hits: 67338 -- Missed: 12016 -- Accuracy: 84.9% -- Avg Hit: 1532 -- Max hit: 29483 -- DMG to PC: 0

Conclusions

It's close still. Easy Mark or Pinpoint will substantially increase FS parse, although there's a high chance of these skills being resisted. (Maybe resist rate adjustments are something to ask for.) It's something like +2040dps for FS and +1570dps for TC. RF/FS also lasts one tick longer, as Songsa pointed out.

With so many more normal attacks landing on TC the bonus from battery (not used) would be more significant. I worked it out at 18/30 * 72 extra per hit which was 320dps for TC vs 211 for FS, and not including the constant damage from the battery attack itself (common to all parses so not relevant for comparative purposes).

Basically it's looking pretty close without NF, about 8% in it which isn't sufficient probably to compensate for the shorter duration unless you soak up that remaining tick with FS after TC. With NF it I'd expect TC to pull ahead a bit more.

I'll set some more parses going, but I look forward to seeing Sindier's too.

PS. Some useful buff durations for my own research
Bard/Rog 3rd spire - 1m32s
Shm epic - 1m2s
Quick time - 3m20s
Fierce Eye effect - 1m44s
Rog epic - 1m38s
Glyph - 2m2s



Last edited by brogett; 07-21-11 at 02:55 PM.
songsa
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #19

Thx Brog, your parse confirm what i see during raid : without nf no real advantage for TC over FS.
Can you do (when you have time) a test comparison between FS and TC alone full raid buff without NF (same conditions as above) and another test with 7th running. I have the feeling in raid to have a better dps with FS (hello new precision accuracy bonus) and that can explain some parses better with RF+TC followed by FS instead of RF +FS followed by TC but it's hard to be sure cause when we do it we already have a solid dps running most of the time (RF done before).



Last edited by songsa; 07-21-11 at 10:24 PM.
Sindier
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #20

songsa said:
Thx Brog, your parse confirm what i see during raid : without nf no real advantage for TC over FS.
Can you do (when you have time) a test comparison between FS and TC alone full raid buff without NF (same conditions as above) and another test with 7th running. I have the feeling in raid to have a better dps with FS (hello new precision accuracy bonus) and that can explain some parses better with RF+TC followed by FS instead of RF +FS followed by TC but it's hard to be sure cause when we do it we already have a solid dps running most of the time (RF done before).
I have a couple more parses to run, so should be able to post my data up later tonight. I've ran some parses like you're wanting to see, minus auspice / warcry, and will be testing the effects of 7th to wrap things up this afternoon!


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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #21

Sindier said:
I have a couple more parses to run, so should be able to post my data up later tonight. I've ran some parses like you're wanting to see, minus auspice / warcry, and will be testing the effects of 7th to wrap things up this afternoon!
Perfect job Sin thx !


brogett
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #22

5) As 1) minus glyph. Rogue's Fury + Frenzied Stabbing:29127secm 35125dps

Brogett -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 1023100328 -- DPS: 35125 -- Scaled: 35125 -- Pierce: 503254346 -- Backstab: 495072187 -- DirDmg: 24773795 -- Non-crit rate: 75.1% -- crit rate: 24.9% -- Attempts: 283055 -- Hits: 241714 -- Missed: 41341 -- Accuracy: 85.4% -- Avg Hit: 3614 -- Max hit: 65539 -- DMG to PC: 0

6) As 2) minus glyph. Rogue's Fury + Twisted Chance: 36346sec, 37800dps.

Brogett -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 1373886706 -- DPS: 37800 -- Scaled: 37800 -- Pierce: 963572588 -- Backstab: 379705852 -- DirDmg: 30608266 -- Non-crit rate: 62.7% -- crit rate: 37.3% -- Attempts: 322462 -- Hits: 322462 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 4260 -- Max hit: 65539 -- DMG to PC: 0

Conclusion

Glyph boosts RF+FS by 4.4% and RF+TC by 6.0%. Not as convincing a difference for TC over FS as I'd anticipated to be honest, and pretty crap all round.

I didn't manage to get any beastlord colleagues on test, so I'm looking forward to Sindier's NF findings. Lots of thanks to Joker for the bard/shaman buffage.



Last edited by brogett; 07-22-11 at 10:03 AM.
Middy
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #23

lol you said Twisted SHANK =p

Honestly though you guys are awesome, thanks for parsing this out for the community.

The results are somewhat shocking.

To summarize I would say given a FULL burn with FULL add-ons

TC+RF > FS+RF.

Its still really close though and it will be really hard to see at what point is the reverse holds true. For instance - take away a BER aura or a bard or any ADD on and which is better. Like all of EQ nowadays (and I like this) its situational, so its "skill" and knowledge based, not "click these 4 bottons every fight no matter what" and - win <-- Most other MMORPGS...


brogett
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #24

Lol oops. I'll correct it. :-)


Garet Jax
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #25

brogett said:
5) As 1) minus glyph. Rogue's Fury + Frenzied Stabbing:29127secm 35125dps

Brogett -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 1023100328 -- DPS: 35125 -- Scaled: 35125 -- Pierce: 503254346 -- Backstab: 495072187 -- DirDmg: 24773795 -- Non-crit rate: 75.1% -- crit rate: 24.9% -- Attempts: 283055 -- Hits: 241714 -- Missed: 41341 -- Accuracy: 85.4% -- Avg Hit: 3614 -- Max hit: 65539 -- DMG to PC: 0

6) As 2) minus glyph. Rogue's Fury + Twisted Chance: 36346sec, 37800dps.

Brogett -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 1373886706 -- DPS: 37800 -- Scaled: 37800 -- Pierce: 963572588 -- Backstab: 379705852 -- DirDmg: 30608266 -- Non-crit rate: 62.7% -- crit rate: 37.3% -- Attempts: 322462 -- Hits: 322462 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 4260 -- Max hit: 65539 -- DMG to PC: 0

Conclusion

Glyph boosts RF+FS by 4.4% and RF+TC by 6.0%. Not as convincing a difference for TC over FS as I'd anticipated to be honest, and pretty crap all round.

I didn't manage to get any beastlord colleagues on test, so I'm looking forward to Sindier's NF findings. Lots of thanks to Joker for the bard/shaman buffage.
one last one please = assassin without glyph, just for comparision with parse #3.


brogett
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #26

Garet Jax said:
one last one please = assassin without glyph, just for comparision with parse #3.
I ran out of time and had to relog for a raid, which likely means the short duration songs & epics will fade. I did camp out at the NPC though so I'll see if I can get them locked fast enough to keep them.


Sindier
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #27

songsa said:
Thx Brog, your parse confirm what i see during raid : without nf no real advantage for TC over FS.
Can you do (when you have time) a test comparison between FS and TC alone full raid buff without NF (same conditions as above) and another test with 7th running. I have the feeling in raid to have a better dps with FS (hello new precision accuracy bonus) and that can explain some parses better with RF+TC followed by FS instead of RF +FS followed by TC but it's hard to be sure cause when we do it we already have a solid dps running most of the time (RF done before).
Garet Jax said:
one last one please = assassin without glyph, just for comparision with parse #3.
I found out that no matter how quick you log out and in, all short term buffs unfortunately fade! I'm still on Test with my buffs though and was gonna finish with my final parse of RF/FS/Sham/Bard/NF without Cataclysm, so I'll do one more with Assassin without the glyph to compare my results of Assassin with glyph. I'll be evaluating data tomorrow and posting up info whenever I can over the weekend.


brogett
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #28

Sindier said:
I found out that no matter how quick you log out and in, all short term buffs unfortunately fade! I'm still on Test with my buffs though and was gonna finish with my final parse of RF/FS/Sham/Bard/NF without Cataclysm, so I'll do one more with Assassin without the glyph to compare my results of Assassin with glyph. I'll be evaluating data tomorrow and posting up info whenever I can over the weekend.
It appears to not remember any short-buff (aka songs & co). My 1min40 or so of epic was gone yet spires weren't. So it's not time related, just not bothering to store that data in the player save file I guess.

Anyway a couple more comparisons. Given I lost the epic clicks and songs I clicked off spires and panther line too to just have long duration buffs and mimic dps when not in a DPS group.
Long term buffs as before. No glyphs, but I still had rog epic on.

RF/FS - 23207 dps, 4996sec parse
RF/TC - 23428 dps, 4105sec parse
Assassin - 13809dps, 4822sec
Base - 7032dps, 8813sec (NB had epic on still)

I know they're shorter, but sufficient to get a ballpark figure at least. What's clear and what we expected too is that it shows TC gains more from support than FS. I have an assassin running atm.



Last edited by brogett; 07-23-11 at 07:10 AM.
Sindier
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #29

I've finally concluded my parsing! It consists of parses mostly between 3-6 hours in length, so although it's not an ideal length it still makes for some fairly accurate comparison. It appears I didn't save my Assassin parses, so I'm depending on Brogett for those!

When looking at the parses, keep in mind that I consistently had the following default buffs in addition to what is listed for each parse header. I did not use Auspice, Warcry or the Berserker aura:

Preeminent Foresight Rk III
Exigent Focusing Rk III
Might of Stone VII
Roar of the Predator Rk III
Strength of the Thicket Stalker Rk III
Spirit of Valor Rk III
Dragorn War Mask
Hastening of Novak
Mammoth’s Force Rk III
Taelosian Guard
Glyph of the Cataclysm (2m 3s)
Third Spire of the Rake (1m 33s)
Thief’s Eyes
Deceiver’s Blight (1m 38s)

Here are the short term buffs that were used in various combinations. Any time "Bard" is listed, I had the Bard epic as well as all listed songs:
Prophet’s Gift of the Ruchu (1m 3s)
Aria of the Composer Rk III
War March of the Dagda Rk III
Spirit of Vesagran (1m 38s)
Fierce Eye Effect (1m 44s)
Quick Time (3m 20s)
Hypodrian Root
Rogue’s Fury (40s)
Nature’s Fury Rk II (38s)

Discs:
Twisted Chance (30s)
Frenzied Stabbing (30s, focused to 36s)
Assassin (30s)

All parsing was completed on a level 98 Test dummy with very upgraded mitigation.

1) Frenzied Stabbing - Sham - Bard – Glyph
Sindier -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 216837138 -- DPS: 16375 -- Scaled: 16375 -- Backstab: 111362300 -- Pierce: 68419227 -- Slash: 34494602 -- DirDmg: 2561009 -- Non-crit rate: 78.4% -- crit rate: 21.6% -- Attempts: 95551 -- Hits: 83256 -- Missed: 12295 -- Accuracy: 87.1% -- Avg Hit: 2269 -- Max hit: 29982 -- DMG to PC: 0

2) Frenzied Stabbing - Sham – Bard – RF - Glyph
Sindier -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 384552529 -- DPS: 33097 -- Scaled: 33097 -- Backstab: 186427604 -- Pierce: 129795056 -- Slash: 66072027 -- DirDmg: 2257842 -- Non-crit rate: 78.4% -- crit rate: 21.6% -- Attempts: 86440 -- Hits: 75121 -- Missed: 11319 -- Accuracy: 86.9% -- Avg Hit: 4448 -- Max hit: 65480 -- DMG to PC: 0

3) Frenzied Stabbing - Sham - Bard - NF – Glyph
Sindier -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 244253054 -- DPS: 17820 -- Scaled: 17820 -- Backstab: 113530212 -- Pierce: 85323117 -- Slash: 44320240 -- DirDmg: 1079485 -- Non-crit rate: 77.8% -- crit rate: 22.2% -- Attempts: 113866 -- Hits: 98346 -- Missed: 15520 -- Accuracy: 86.4% -- Avg Hit: 2145 -- Max hit: 29141 -- DMG to PC: 0

4) Frenzied Stabbing - Sham - Bard – RF - NF – Glyph
Sindier -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 492271143 -- DPS: 38146 -- Scaled: 38146 -- Backstab: 225504398 -- Pierce: 174169282 -- Slash: 90139479 -- DirDmg: 2457984 -- Non-crit rate: 76.7% -- crit rate: 23.3% -- Attempts: 109231 -- Hits: 94800 -- Missed: 14431 -- Accuracy: 86.8% -- Avg Hit: 4506 -- Max hit: 65480 -- DMG to PC: 0

5) Frenzied Stabbing - Sham - Bard – RF - NF – Glyph – 7th
Sindier -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 407595887 -- DPS: 36730 -- Scaled: 36730 -- Backstab: 186127225 -- Pierce: 145246790 -- Slash: 74735181 -- DirDmg: 1486691 -- Non-crit rate: 77.5% -- crit rate: 22.5% -- Attempts: 92604 -- Hits: 80097 -- Missed: 12507 -- Accuracy: 86.5% -- Avg Hit: 4401 -- Max hit: 63618 -- DMG to PC: 0

6) Frenzied Stabbing - Sham – Bard - RF - NF - NO GLYPH
Sindier -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 1094264053 -- DPS: 34720 -- Scaled: 34720 -- Backstab: 518242841 -- Pierce: 379997759 -- Slash: 193790063 -- DirDmg: 2233390 -- Non-crit rate: 77.8% -- crit rate: 22.2% -- Attempts: 262029 -- Hits: 226808 -- Missed: 35221 -- Accuracy: 86.6% -- Avg Hit: 4176 -- Max hit: 63618 -- DMG to PC: 0

7) Twisted Chance - Sham - Bard – Glyph
Sindier -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 262767041 -- DPS: 16181 -- Scaled: 16181 -- Pierce: 124598382 -- Backstab: 71159838 -- Slash: 63881510 -- DirDmg: 3127311 -- Non-crit rate: 66.7% -- crit rate: 33.3% -- Attempts: 102862 -- Hits: 102862 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 2554 -- Max hit: 29982 -- DMG to PC: 0

8) Twisted Chance - Sham - Bard – RF - Glyph
Sindier -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 314332374 -- DPS: 33763 -- Scaled: 33763 -- Pierce: 154662069 -- Backstab: 79339211 -- Slash: 78492244 -- DirDmg: 1838850 -- Non-crit rate: 66.9% -- crit rate: 33.1% -- Attempts: 61243 -- Hits: 61243 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 5132 -- Max hit: 65480 -- DMG to PC: 0

9) Twisted Chance - Sham - Bard - NF – Glyph
Sindier -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 255625478 -- DPS: 19641 -- Scaled: 19641 -- Pierce: 129375248 -- Slash: 65900800 -- Backstab: 57854929 -- DirDmg: 2494501 -- Non-crit rate: 63.5% -- crit rate: 36.5% -- Attempts: 98284 -- Hits: 98284 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 2600 -- Max hit: 29982 -- DMG to PC: 0

10) Twisted Chance - Sham - Bard – RF - NF – Glyph
Sindier -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 342648681 -- DPS: 40835 -- Scaled: 40835 -- Pierce: 173459336 -- Slash: 89892331 -- Backstab: 77643545 -- DirDmg: 1653469 -- Non-crit rate: 63.3% -- crit rate: 36.7% -- Attempts: 63698 -- Hits: 63698 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 5379 -- Max hit: 65480 -- DMG to PC: 0

11) Twisted Chance - Sham - Bard – RF - NF – Glyph – 7th
Sindier -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 459061435 -- DPS: 38049 -- Scaled: 38049 -- Pierce: 231019435 -- Slash: 120473809 -- Backstab: 105998508 -- DirDmg: 1569683 -- Non-crit rate: 65.4% -- crit rate: 34.6% -- Attempts: 89035 -- Hits: 89035 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 5155 -- Max hit: 63618 -- DMG to PC: 0

12) Twisted Chance - Sham - Bard – RF - NF - NO GLYPH
Sindier -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 545837791 -- DPS: 35718 -- Scaled: 35718 -- Pierce: 269912979 -- Slash: 139372353 -- Backstab: 135519503 -- DirDmg: 1032956 -- Non-crit rate: 65.5% -- crit rate: 34.5% -- Attempts: 112893 -- Hits: 112893 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 4835 -- Max hit: 63618 -- DMG to PC: 0


One thing that needs to be further parsed is that with both TC/FS, along with the raid buffs, RF, NF and Glyph, both discs appeared to do significantly less DPS with 7th running.

I didn't do quite enough parses to break down disc burns without glyphs, but TC still seems to be slightly ahead of FS in this situation. It is similar to the breakdown of the discs while using a Glyph, though a Glyph seems to more than double the effectiveness of TC over FS.

TC w/o Glyph, with Sham/Bard/RF/NF: 35,718 DPS (2.79% > FS)
FS w/o Glyph, with Sham/Bard/RF/NF: 34,720 DPS

TC with Glyph/Sham/Bard/RF/NF: 40,835 DPS (6.59% > FS)
FS with Glyph/Sham/Bard/RF/NF: 38,146 DPS

Here is a breakdown comparison of the direct effects of RF and NF on TC and FS, followed by a simulated disc burn of each. Take into consideration that these breakdowns would be in an ideal, perfect environment where discs/buffs are lined up without even a second of delay, which is very unlikely to happen. This is only a comparison from raw data. Again, my Assassins parses didn't save, I have deleted the primary log, and I'm all parsed out to do more at this point. I think it's safe to say Assassins will be used as our 3rd disc anyway, so this is just a comparison of TC Vs. FS. My DPS numbers are a good bit below Brogett's also, as my Arena Test dummy had it's mitigation greatly increased above Brogett's, so I'm just leaving Assassins out of this equation. Although this isn't a 100% practical comparison, I think it is an effectively consistent comparison between the discs.

TC with Bard/Sham/Glyph: 16181
FS with Bard/Sham/Glyph: 16375 (1.18% > TC)

TC with Bard/Sham/Glyph/RF: 33763 (1.97% > FS)
FS with Bard/Sham/Glyph/RF: 33097

TC with Bard/Sham/Glyph/RF/NF: 40835 (6.59% > FS)
FS with Bard/Sham/Glyph/RF/NF: 38146

1) Raid buffs, Shaman, Bard, Glyph
TC -> FS -> Assassins
TC w/ RF: 33763 * 30s = 1012890
FS w/ 10s of RF, 26s w/o: 33097 * 10 = 330970, 16375 * 26 = 425750, Total = 756720
Total Dmg: 1769610
Total Time: 66s
Total DPS: 26,812

FS -> TS -> Assassins
FS w/ RF: 33097 * 36 = 1191492
TC w/ 4s of RF, 26 w/o: 33763 * 4 = 135052, 16181 * 26 = 420706, Total = 555758
Total Dmg: 1747250
Total Time: 66s
Total DPS: 26,473

2) Raid buffs, Shaman, Bard, Glyph, Nature's Fury
TC -> FS -> Assassins
TC w/ RF & NF: 40835 * 30 = 1225050
FS w/ 8s RF + NF, 2s RF, 26s w/o: 38146 * 8 = 305168, 33097 * 2 = 66194, 16375 * 26 = 425750, Total = 797112
Total Dmg: 2022162
Total Time: 66s
Total DPS: 30,638

FS -> TC -> Assassins
FS w/ RF + NF: 38146 * 36 = 1373256
TC w/ 2s NF & RF, 4s RF, 24s w/o: 40835 * 2 = 81670, 33763 * 4 = 135052, 16181 * 24 = 388344, Total = 605066
Total Dmg: 1978322
Total Time: 66s
Total DPS: 29,974

Considering the margin of error of my parses, it seems to be a somewhat negligable difference between the disc order of using TC and FS on paper. In a real time setting though, I would think using TC with RF followed by FS then Assassins might give an overall higher damage output when considering the variables. While using TC, EVERY hit lands 100% of the time as a crit, which will only escalate our DPS. While using FS, especially in a raid setting, mobs often turn either to lost aggro or even to cast spells, so we tend to have missed opportunities with FS when we briefly get the front of a mob, which should further drop the overall effectiveness when not always having the back of test dummy. It's also important to consider I did not use Warcry, Auspice, a Circle click or a Berserker aura during my parsing, which might tend to give even more of an advantage to the benefits of TC.

Feel free to take a look at my data to make any other conclusions or point out any mistakes I have made in my conclusions. Again, it would be good to further test the effect of 7th when fully burning with RF and NF, as it's quite a bug if it does indeed lower our overall DPS than if we were not using 7th at all.



Last edited by Sindier; 07-23-11 at 07:36 AM.
songsa
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #30

Thx for those parses. 7th should not give any advantages when RF or assassin is up at the same time because the damage modifier effects don't stack. It is strange to have a lesser dps with 7th though...

If you want to see the real impact of 7th on our discs you need to parse it without RF or assassin : for example FS+7th or TC+7th with or without helpers buffs/short duration.
Personnally i click 7th always after RF and assassin for an ideal burn, to stack it with the last disc i have (FS or TC).


Sindier
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #31

songsa said:
Thx for those parses. 7th should not give any advantages when RF or assassin is up at the same time because the damage modifier effects don't stack. It is strange to have a lesser dps with 7th though...

If you want to see the real impact of 7th on our discs you need to parse it without RF or assassin : for example FS+7th or TC+7th with or without helpers buffs/short duration.
Yeah, I knew going into it that it really shouldn't have any effect while those discs were running, and I was just surprised the DPS seemed to go down with it up. It could just be margin of error from the parsing though, but ideally 7th would only benefit any time of FS or TC without RF, and beyond Assassins on a burn.


brogett
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #32

Many thanks for the parse data Sindier.

I'm wondering if 7th is actually taking precedence over something else (eg RF) and reducing dps that way? It's odd.

Also on the simulated burn orders, remember we'll be using easy mark and pinpoint, timed with FS. Our instinct is that it'll massively boost FS over TC, but the difference isn't as large as we think given under TC every backstab lands and with a higher crit rate.

Your top FS parse had 17.5k dps from backstab while your top TC parse had 9.3k dps. So the gain is 8.2k dps which ends up soemthing like 1k dps extra gain to FS than TC due to using backstab modifiers *when they don't resist*.

That puts RF/FS on simulated parses about equal footing with RF/TC when using NF, and a bit ahead when not. Generally I stand by my view that RF/TC is the best bet when you have optimal support if only due to the fact it's the more reliable dps - a mob spinning due to overagro loses very little with TC, unlike with FS.

Brog

Oh and :P to the elitist ROI rogues who tried to ridicule me for suggesting RF/TC was a viable disc combo. You know who you are :-P


brogett
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #33

brogett said:
I'm wondering if 7th is actually taking precedence over something else (eg RF) and reducing dps that way? It's odd.
Edit: scratch that, just lack of data....

Now for your parses, you have less backstab, pierce, slash and DD.

Sindier, could you please look at the min/max crits for all of your attack types for comparable parses with and without 7th? Is it changing any min/max modifiers somehow?



Last edited by brogett; 07-23-11 at 09:13 AM.
Sindier
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #34

brogett said:
Edit: scratch that, just lack of data....

Now for your parses, you have less backstab, pierce, slash and DD.

Sindier, could you please look at the min/max crits for all of your attack types for comparable parses with and without 7th? Is it changing any min/max modifiers somehow?
Here are the Min/Max critical hits from the parses:

TC with Bard/Sham/Glyph/RF/NF:
Min BS - 5772, Min Pierce - 2150, Min Slash - 2377, Min DD - 251 (normal, crits showing as 0?)
Max BS - 65480, Max Pierce - 12278, Max Slash - 13773, Max DD - 1099 (normal)

FS with Bard/Sham/Glyph/RF/NF:
Min BS - 5772, Min Pierce - 2150, Min Slash - 2377, Min DD - 251 (normal)
Max BS - 65480, Max Pierce - 12278, Max Slash - 13773, Max DD - 1099 (normal)

TC with Bard/Sham/Glyph/RF/NF/7th:
Min BS - 5624, Min Pierce - 2114, Min Slash - 2336, Min DD - 251 (normal)
Max BS - 63618, Max Pierce - 12060, Max Slash - 13528, Max DD - 1099 (normal)

FS with Bard/Sham/Glyph/RF/NF/7th:
Min BS - 5624, Min Pierce - 2114, Min Slash - 2336, Min DD - 251 (normal)
Max BS - 63618, Max Pierce - 12060, Max Slash - 13528, Max DD - 1099 (normal)


It's worth it to note that before looking at the crit max/min, etc., it was suggested to me that Fierce Eye was possibly being canceled out by 7th, but the procs seemed to hit for the same



Last edited by Sindier; 07-23-11 at 10:32 AM.
Renuvas
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #35

Interesting.



songsa
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #36

Really interesting yea, when you compare the numbers here it shows as an evidence that 7th veteran nerf our dps when used with RF under those conditions : maybe 7th cancel an helper buff? need to test without any other buff than ours to see if the problem comes from our discs or helpers buffs (bard for example)



Last edited by songsa; 07-23-11 at 11:55 AM.
brogett
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #37

songsa said:
Really interesting yea, when you compare the numbers here it shows as an evidence that 7th veteran nerf our dps when used with RF under those conditions : maybe 7th cancel an helper buff? need to test without any other buff than ours to see if the problem comes from our discs or helpers buffs (bard for example)
I did this already and found no change in min/max values - indeed it's why I asked Sindier for his values as I was suspecting some other helper-buff from being cancelled out. Edit to clarify: I tested rog-only + long-term buffs. No short term stuff.

The theory on it being Fierce Eye seems to carry some weight. A .1 modifier to crit multiplier (without doing any maths to prove it) feels about the right amount. Of course there's one way to test it - anyone got a bard? :-)

Brog



Last edited by brogett; 07-23-11 at 01:13 PM.
Brokkah
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #38

I can get a bard onto test for you mate. Give me a shout ingame.


Haettiwari
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #39

So whats actually causing the max 34244 pierce hit(s) Feochadan had in his parse in the other thread?


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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #40

Haettiwari said:
So whats actually causing the max 34244 pierce hit(s) Feochadan had in his parse in the other thread?
Took me a while to find it so linking here for ease:
http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/s...7&postcount=54
http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/s...0&postcount=62

The only answer I have is maybe something like finishing blow, but that would be higher. Hmm, no clue frankly atm. Feochadan could check his logs I guess to see where the message comes from. I'll check my own parses when I get home too.



Last edited by brogett; 07-25-11 at 09:02 AM.
Garet Jax
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #41

could 7th be over writing glyph? replacing its values over glyph?


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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #42

Sindier said:

5) Frenzied Stabbing - Sham - Bard RF - NF Glyph 7th
Sindier -vs- Test Ninety Eight: -- DMG: 407595887 -- DPS: 36730 -- Scaled: 36730 -- Backstab: 186127225 -- Pierce: 145246790 -- Slash: 74735181 -- DirDmg: 1486691 -- Non-crit rate: 77.5% -- crit rate: 22.5% -- Attempts: 92604 -- Hits: 80097 -- Missed: 12507 -- Accuracy: 86.5% -- Avg Hit: 4401 -- Max hit: 63618 -- DMG to PC: 0
Frenzied Stabbing - Sham - Bard RF - NF 7th

Frenzied Stabbing - Sham - Bard RF Glyph 7th

I would do some parses with the above 2 to make sure nature fury and glyph isnt getting overwritten by 7th.


brogett
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #43

Haettiwari said:
So whats actually causing the max 34244 pierce hit(s) Feochadan had in his parse in the other thread?
Still not sure what this is, but I see some large ones myself:

[Sun Jul 24 21:42:30 2011] You pierce Al`Kabor for 5414 points of damage.
[Sun Jul 24 21:42:30 2011] Brogett scores a critical hit! (21135)
[Sun Jul 24 21:42:30 2011] You pierce Al`Kabor for 23700 points of damage.
[Sun Jul 24 21:42:30 2011] Brogett scores a critical hit! (5230)
[Sun Jul 24 21:42:30 2011] You pierce Al`Kabor for 5886 points of damage.
[Sun Jul 24 21:42:30 2011] Brogett scores a critical hit! (28027)
[Sun Jul 24 21:42:30 2011] You pierce Al`Kabor for 31419 points of damage.

That's normal piercing, but *heavily* modified by all kinds of shizzle. It was during an RF/TC burn and other stuff. (Total was 35k dps averaged over 150sec, so I was happy with it, albeit lucky on the poison procs. :-) )


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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #44

brogett said:

That's normal piercing, but *heavily* modified by all kinds of shizzle.
Well, *what shizzle* would be most interesting obviously
I mean, 3 times the max damage after Sham - Bard RF - NF Glyph 7th or so?



Last edited by Haettiwari; 07-25-11 at 12:15 PM.
brogett
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Re: Disc combinations
Reply With Quote   #45

brogett said:
The theory on it being Fierce Eye seems to carry some weight. A .1 modifier to crit multiplier (without doing any maths to prove it) feels about the right amount. Of course there's one way to test it - anyone got a bard? :-)
So a quick test using RF+FE vs RF+FE+7th and then looking at the big spikes in the attack graphs shows the critical hit multipliers. I got 2.38x for backstab and 4.48x for pierce with RF+FE. Adding 7th the non-crit values didn't change while the critical hit ones dropped. Working out the multipliers showed 2.28x and 4.38x. Ie exactly 0.1 less.

This is the same effect listed on fierce eye: http://kumbaja.antonius-bayle.org/spell/view/12519

Slot 11: Increase Critical Damage Modifier for All Skills by 0.1

So basically adding 7th is indeed blocking this component of fierce eye. I assume it also blocks the proc rate modifier on fierce eye too (given 7th doesn't use slot 11 itself yet it is blocking it still).




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